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love_jackianto
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I just found this comm. I've noticed that no one has posted here in a long time, I hope it's ok to still post here.



'Ray: Just look, I'm going to punch you in the face Why don't you listen to me? '

I don't think this episode is really about trust, but about Ray wanting Fraser to listen to him and treating him like a equal, not a sidekick. In BdtH the first thing Ray does after he hugs Fraser is say that they're partners- he doesn't even mention friends.

Ray: What do you see, over and over, is this. Duets. Okay?

Think about it. Lenon and McCartney, Leopold and Loeb, The Three Stooges. Strictly speaking, they were a trio, but in my opinion they should have dropped Larry right from the start because you could see the guy he just was not committed to it. Anyway, I think you know what I'm talking about.

Fraser: No, I'm sorry, I haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about.

Ray: Partners, Fraser. Partners...


Seeing Fraser and Ray as equal partners would have been great, except that a sidekick was exactly what Ray was in this episode. Fraser has to save him several times (shooting off his handcuffs, buddy-breathing) and Fraser even gets to be the hero (he's the one who shoots).

I think I would have liked this episode better if Ray had been the hero, or at the very least the one to save Fraser- like he did in BdtH, Easy Money and Odds.

AN: I'd love to hear what other people think.
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Comments
From: starfishchick Date: June 24th, 2008 05:49 pm (UTC) (Link)
But Ray does save them, his instinct tells him which way the sub has to go. And Fraser has to trust Ray - and his instinct, even though there is no logical reason to do think Ray has any idea which way to go - and that trust cements their partnership. Like dead!Bob says, partnership is
give and take, up and down, who left the empty butter dish in the fridge... Fraser and Ray both had to give and take in this particular episode.
love_jackianto From: love_jackianto Date: June 24th, 2008 06:09 pm (UTC) (Link)
Ah, I that makes sense. I'll have to think about this some more.

Love your buddy breathing icon, by the way. I don't think I ever seen that scene so well.
From: starfishchick Date: June 24th, 2008 06:12 pm (UTC) (Link)
By the wonderful zoetrope!
ibringthefunk From: ibringthefunk Date: June 25th, 2008 07:18 pm (UTC) (Link)
Yeah, but-- I mean, maybe this is just me, but doesn't the whole give and take thing feel awfully one-sided here? I know the point of the episodes is supposed to be the big compromise that Ray and Fraser come to, but seriously-- the only concession Fraser makes to Ray the whole time is sort of listening to him about which arbitrary direction to go in when they're lost and he's going to have to guess anyway. What kind of a compromise is that?

Don't get me wrong, this has always been a fun episode for me (handcuffs! nautical nonsense! anachronisms! did those two guys just kiss!); it's just I don't really buy the idea that by the time things resolve Fraser has learned how to compromise. It feels more to me like Ray learns this lesson that Fraser still isn't willing give any ground, but... Ray's willing to stick around anyway? I don't even know. Seriously, why does he stay? Possibly because Ray is a crazy stalker who doesn't know when to quit. Y/N?
From: starfishchick Date: June 25th, 2008 07:28 pm (UTC) (Link)
For Fraser to give even that little bit, though, is a big thing, I think. And Ray did say that THIS ONE TIME Fraser should listen to him - and he did!

(I don't entirely disagree with you, either, actually. But still.)
ibringthefunk From: ibringthefunk Date: June 26th, 2008 03:37 pm (UTC) (Link)
I guess I can see how from Fraser's perspective this was sort of a big deal for him. But it still seems really sad to me that Ray asks him for this one thing, to be treated like equal partners, and Fraser give back so much less than that-- and then Ray just takes it anyway. I guess he figured it was better than nothing? Or maybe being Fraser's sidekick was still better than being anyone else's partner?
love_jackianto From: love_jackianto Date: June 26th, 2008 04:13 pm (UTC) (Link)
did those two guys just kiss!
*heh*

'I guess he figured it was better than nothing?'
Yeah, I can see that. I think he just took what he could get. When he tried to get Stella to compromise (Children vs. Career) she divorced him.

primroseburrows From: primroseburrows Date: June 25th, 2008 08:10 pm (UTC) (Link)
Ray sticks around because Fraser is the best friend he's got. Maybe he knows that Fraser won't always compromise, but in this case, he does, and so he can. And, Fraser will always be there for Ray when the Big Stuff happens (and vice-versa). I think he stays because he realises all this, and that the good points about Fraser outweigh the bad ones.

And yeah, it's all my projection, because I don't think Ray actually says those things. Not in words, anyway.

I don't think Ray's a crazy stalker, but he's needy as heck emotionally (COTW is a major illustration of that, and also every scene he's in with Stella). And Fraser? Needs to be needed, bigtime. They're codependent little things, aren't they? It does seem to work for them, though.
ibringthefunk From: ibringthefunk Date: June 26th, 2008 03:48 pm (UTC) (Link)
Haha, well, okay. Their codependency makes a lot of sense. Which I guess means that threatening to dissolve the partnership could never have been more than an empty threat that got out of hand.
primroseburrows From: primroseburrows Date: June 27th, 2008 12:28 am (UTC) (Link)
Which I guess means that threatening to dissolve the partnership could never have been more than an empty threat that got out of hand.

I never thought about it that way. I guess it could be that the whole thing escalated to the point where neither of them thought they could back down without looking bad. Hmm.
From: starfishchick Date: June 26th, 2008 03:48 pm (UTC) (Link)
Well said!
love_jackianto From: love_jackianto Date: June 26th, 2008 03:57 pm (UTC) (Link)
'Ray sticks around because Fraser is the best friend he's got. Maybe he knows that Fraser won't always compromise, but in this case, he does, and so he can.'
Excellent point. I think all Ray wanted was just one compromise- Stella didn't compromise about Children vs. Career, after all. Maybe that's why such a big deal was made about partnership being like a marriage.

'...but he's needy as heck emotionally (COTW is a major illustration of that, and also every scene he's in with Stella). And Fraser? Needs to be needed, bigtime.'
Oh yes. They are both very codependent.
primroseburrows From: primroseburrows Date: June 27th, 2008 12:33 am (UTC) (Link)
I think all Ray wanted was just one compromise- Stella didn't compromise about Children vs. Career, after all.

I really don't like Stella very much, because she's mostly awful to Ray even when he doesn't deserve it. And it always seems to be All About Stella with her.

With Fraser it's the opposite. He's not selfish, he's just pigheaded. He probably won't back down very often, but the fact that he can would be important to Ray. Fraser can be a jerk, but he's not an ass.
love_jackianto From: love_jackianto Date: June 27th, 2008 01:12 am (UTC) (Link)
'Fraser can be a jerk, but he's not an ass.'
That is very true.

'I really don't like Stella very much, because she's mostly awful to Ray even when he doesn't deserve it.'
Ah yes, The Stella. She could be a whole meta just by herself.
Personally I think Stella was cruel to Ray because at least part of her knew that if she let him back into her life, even just a little, would be a mistake. In Strange Bedfellows she did say; 'It would be a mistake. You could stay, we could make love and it would be great, like a thousand times before. But tomorrow we'd be right back where we were this morning. Maybe a couple more regrets.', but that's exactly what they would have done if Fraser hadn't shown up.
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